[gonefishin]

     Hi Rob (Hi All),


    I'm finally buying myself a decent kitchen knife, a Masamoto HC 270mm Gyuto.  I can't wait to get it...I just can't wait!  But now I'm looking at getting some better stones or possibly an EdgePro Apex system with Shapton stones.

    I would say I'm a beginner at freehand sharpening.  I could raise a burr and deburr with my el cheapo Norton combo stone on German SS.  I could keep my shoulder fairly square with an even touch...but keep in mind that I've only got experience with German SS and the Norton oil combo (which I do run dry instead).  So I can get an ok edge, but no more.

   While I was looking into waterstones I got pointed to the EdgePro system.  Are there any limitations to the Apex?  I'm not sure if I want to go freehand or EdgePro.  Neither system is cheap for the initial set-up.  I'm leaning toward the EdgePro because I don't have much confidence in my angles, especially with double bevels.
 
    I've always done fine with what I currently have (Norton and SS)...but high carbon and waterstones are a completely different animal.  I would like to know what your thoughts are on the subject, having used both...and a bit of a knife nut
 
  thanks,
 dan

[Rob Babcock]

Well, you can't go wrong with the EdgePro, and with the Shapton Pro stones it's even better.  I've got the EP Shaptons in 1k, 2k, 5k & 8k and have a 15k on the way.   The Shap Pros are amazing stones, a good step up from the excellent stones that Ben sells.

All systems have limitations, including freehand!   The Apex has some, too.  The main issue is that the stones have to fit, limiting your selection.  However, now that Ken Schwartz is selling Naniwa Choceras and Shapton Pro & Glass Stones, this isn't really an issue.  The Choceras are probably the best synthetic waterstones in the world.  I have EdgePro-cut Choceras in 400, 800 and 2k and am really impressed.  The 400 is simply the best coarse stone I've ever used.

The EP does have a little bit of a learning curve.  You'll get a good edge the first time you use it but you'll get a lot better after a dozen or so knives.  The Apex shines on kitchen knives.  Any knife with a flat blade is much easier to sharpen; some hunting and tactical knives with facets & strange grinds can be difficult to lay flat on the blade table, making them trickier to do.  Very long knives are also a bit more challenging, at least until you get used to holding them on the table.  One last possible limitation is that if you're not very ambidextrous it takes some getting used to switching hands to sharpen both sides.

Waterstones will do a great job on carbon steel.  The Shaptons definitely will.  I think it's worth the extra money.  If you with the EP, I recommend ChefKnivesToGo.com.  Marks a great guy, very knowledgeable about his products.  They're fast and give terrific customer service.  I spoke to the guy that cuts the custom stones for him and he's going to be shipping another batch any day now.

I enjoy sharpening free hand, too, but for serious work I use the EP.  Since getting the new stones I've been doing a lot of sharpening for the guys at work and to a man they're all blown away with the edges I give 'em.  In all likelihood you've never seen a knife as sharp as you'll be getting off your EP within the first 10 uses.  And it will be easy!  Even the stock 320 EP stone will easily get most of your knives sharper than they came out of the box- the edge you can get with the finer stones is spooky!

BTW, I've also been experimenting with mounting DMT Diasharp 6" diamond stones on EdgePro stone blanks.  My initial results have been very encouraging.  I completely rebevelled a couple of profoundly dull 10" German chef's knives with my DMT Xtra-Coarse & Coarse stones, and each took only 2 or 3 minutes!

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, the EP Apex 5 Kit that CKtG sells is a pretty good deal.  Those stones will give you a good edge.  That said the OEM stones that Edge Pro sells are very good, too.  EP uses different grit ratings than the Japanese waterstones are graded with.  What EP calls a 320 is the same grit equivalent as a 1k waterstone.  The 320/1k EP is a great stone.  If it were me, I'd probably get the Apex with stock EP stones and add Shaptons and/or Naniwas so that I had both.

I also consider it worth the $10 to get a glass tape blank direct from Edge Pro.  Very nice for using PSA adhesives at insane grits to put an supernaturally keen edge on a good blade.

[gonefishin]

   Thanks for taking the time to put my mind as ease.  I just spent a decent amount of money on a knife and I didn't want to walk down the wrong path with my stone choice.  I sent an e-mail, with a few questions, to Mark earlier today and already got a reply.  Heck, it's Sunday...I didn't expect to hear from him so soon.
 
    I think I may get the Apex5 with 320,2000 (instead of 1500), 5000.  Then add an EP 120, 320 for my regular knives    There are certainly other stones I'd like to order right away...but.  But I think I've spent enough for right now 
 
 
 
 
 

BTW, I've also been experimenting with mounting DMT Diasharp 6" diamond stones on EdgePro stone blanks.  My initial results have been very encouraging.  I completely rebevelled a couple of profoundly dull 10" German chef's knives with my DMT Xtra-Coarse & Coarse stones, and each took only 2 or 3 minutes!

   YIKES!  That is scary...just imagine what those stones could do in the wrong hands
 
 
   Thanks again
   dan

[Rob Babcock]

Oh, yeah- you wanna take care with those XC DMT plates!  They're not for the timid.    They require a light touch.  I think you'll be really pleased with the Shaptons.  I don't have the 320 Pro but I do have the 2k & 5k.  They'll put a screaming edge on your Masamoto.  Beware though, they're addictive!  Next thing you're gonna wonder is how much sharper will they get with the 8k?  Or 15k?  Or...  Good stuff.

I'd suggest that if you don't do a lot of re-profiling or resharpening extremely dull knives that the 220 might be better than the 120.  This is just my opinion but I don't like the feel of the 120 and I think it dishes too fast.  The 220 isn't quite as rough but has a good feel and still removes metal well.  The 320 EP is a gem of a stone, well worth having.  It would also work well on you Masamoto.

Once you've got a few knives under your belt you might wanna try the DMT... aa

[gonefishin]

    Addictive?  OH NO!


   HaHa    I would like to get an 8000 right away, but I have to draw the line somewhere.  Besides, now I know what the kids could get me for my birthday in March  . 

      Thanks on the advice on the 220 EP. 

   dan

[turkey]

That EdgePro just looks like a fancier Loray/Landsky sharpener.

I prefer the sharpeners from Razor Edge Systems.

http://razoredgesystems.com/

I feel John Juranitch is the best in the business. At a show some years ago I watched him borrow a knife from someone in the audience, sharpen it, and then shave with it. I knew the guy he borrowed the knife from, and it was a cheap piece of junk that hadn't been taken care of at all. I got to see the knife afterwards and it had a perfect edge on it.

That kind of convinced me that this guy Juranitch knew what he was talking about.

I wound up with a copy of his book and then bought some of his products. I do things pretty much as he recommends, although I generally just sharpen by hand without a guide. I've gotten used to doing that and it's less hassle. I'm sure I don't get quite as good an edge, but
I'm happy with the results.

[gonefishin]

    Thanks for the link turkey.  The Razor Edge System looks like a nice guide.  I bet it does work good.  But I'd still have the expense of the waterstones that I want to go with.
 
 
   Rob,  another question.  How long do the various Shaptons last when their cut for the EdgePro?  Hopefully I'll be ordering soon
 
 Thanks,
  dan

[turkey]

    Thanks for the link turkey.  The Razor Edge System looks like a nice guide.  I bet it does work good.  But I'd still have the expense of the waterstones that I want to go with.

No need for waterstones. The hones that Razor Edge sells will do a better job.

I find the Razor Edge coarse stones are pretty hard to beat. You use that to bring up the burr, then switch to a very fine stone to polish the edge.

The fine stones Razor Edge has work well, or you can use rubber cement to glue a piece of emery cloth to some wood. I also sometimes use an ultrafine Coors ceramic stone.

Finish with a smooth steel.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a good edge once you know the secret. You really don't need fancy equipment to do it either.

I might choose Japanese waterstones for sharpening Japanese woodworking tools. I don't think I'd use them for anything else though.

[gitarretyp]

I've never sharpened knives before but have been considering giving it a try, and the Razor Edge system seems pretty affordable. Would you recommend this Razor Edge kit for sharpening kitchen knives, e.g., santokus and chef's knives?

[Rob Babcock]

The Razor Edge system is pretty good, but not as versatile as the Edge Pro.  You're basically stuck with the angles that you have guide for which is limiting.  Personally I think waterstones are superior for the higher end of sharpening but obviously people have achieved good results with lots of different types of abrasives.  Nothing that I know of, save powered equipment (eg belt grinder, Tormek), cuts as fast as a synthetic waterstone.  Even the coarses diamond plates can't touch them.  The price to be paid is a need to flatten- a waterstone will dish faster than a typical oil stone.  The speed combined with the wide range of grits (from 70 grit on the low end to 30,000 on the high end) makes synthetic waterstones hard to beat.

Obviously there are other options, but if you're looking for a guided system and plan to use it primarily for kitchen knives you'd be hard pressed to do better than Edge Pro.  If you do a lot of hunting type knives then there are other options that may suite you better.

[turkey]

I've never sharpened knives before but have been considering giving it a try, and the Razor Edge system seems pretty affordable. Would you recommend this Razor Edge kit for sharpening kitchen knives, e.g., santokus and chef's knives?

That should work just fine.

[turkey]

The Razor Edge system is pretty good, but not as versatile as the Edge Pro.  You're basically stuck with the angles that you have guide for which is limiting.  Personally I think

Nuts. You can move the guide on the blade to give varied angles. Besides that, the angle is not terribly important for a knife (pocket, hunting, kitchen, etc.) other than you want a low angle when using the coarse stone and a higher angle when using the fine stone.

waterstones are superior for the higher end of sharpening but obviously people have achieved good results with lots of different types of abrasives.  Nothing that I know of, save powered equipment (eg belt grinder, Tormek), cuts as fast as a synthetic waterstone.  Even the coarses diamond plates can't touch them.  The price to be paid is a need to flatten- a waterstone will dish faster than a typical oil stone.  The speed combined with the wide range of grits (from 70 grit on the low end to 30,000 on the high end) makes synthetic waterstones hard to beat.

If you really need to remove a lot of material, go with powered equipment. However, unless you're using your knives to pry open shipping crates or something, you don't need to remove that much stock when sharpening.

As for the wide range of grits, that's absolutely meaningless. You need a very coarse stone and a very fine stone. All the stuff in the middle will just waste your time (and money).

[gonefishin]

No need for waterstones. The hones that Razor Edge sells will do a better job.

I find the Razor Edge coarse stones are pretty hard to beat. You use that to bring up the burr, then switch to a very fine stone to polish the edge.


You'd be surprised how easy it is to get a good edge once you know the secret. You really don't need fancy equipment to do it either.

I might choose Japanese waterstones for sharpening Japanese woodworking tools. I don't think I'd use them for anything else though.

   Hi Turkey,
 
   There is no doubt that a person can put a fantastic edge on a knife freehand with a course & fine stone.  In fact, No matter what I end up going with I'll probably subscribe to similar thinking for most of my knives.
 
   However, I do want to bring the edge, on my new Gyuto, to a higher polished edge and I'd like to do so in incremental steps to take full advantage of the higher stones.  I'm not going to move from a 1500 to an 8,000.  Excess?  Yes.  Too much money?  Yes.  Like I said, I wouldn't argue with you that a person can't achieve a more than adequate edge going freehand (with good technique) and a couple of low cost stones.   But, like I said, the new kitchen knife I just bought was a bit "excess".  It's crafted using high carbon steel from a fifth generation Japanese knife maker.
 
   A big reason for looking into a guide system instead of continuing to free hand is moving into some knives with a double bevel.  I've always done fine with a single bevel on a combination oil stone, but I'm starting to move into a whole different type of knife.  Excess?  yes, i understand that.  But I won't be using my waterstones on my decent knives, made of German steel.
 
  Thanks,
  dan

[turkey]

   However, I do want to bring the edge, on my new Gyuto, to a higher polished edge and I'd like to do so in incremental steps to take full advantage of the higher stones.  I'm not going to move from a 1500 to an 8,000.  Excess?  Yes.  Too much money?  Yes.  Like I said, I wouldn't argue with you that a person can't achieve a more than adequate edge going freehand (with good technique) and a couple of low cost stones.   But, like I said, the new kitchen knife I just bought was a bit "excess".  It's crafted using high carbon steel from a fifth generation Japanese knife maker.

Those incremental steps don't do anything in this case. They just require you to expend more effort and money.

I'm also not against using guides. The Razor Edge guides work very nicely.

On the other hand, the EdgePro stuff looks overly complex and is certainly expensive - thus my comments.

You mentioned double bevels. That's what I go for. It's easy to do. I've tried more complex bevels, as well as Moran or "appleseed" bevels. For most tasks it is the very edge that does all the work and the surfaces farther back on the blade aren't really meaningful.

Do what you want. I've been sharpening knives for over 40 years, for myself, friends, family, hunters, police officers, paramedics... I was trying to give you a simple and inexpensive way of getting a superb edge on your knives. I doubt very much whether you'll be able to improve on that, but have at it. 

[Rob Babcock]

Nuts. You can move the guide on the blade to give varied angles. Besides that, the angle is not terribly important for a knife (pocket, hunting, kitchen, etc.) other than you want a low angle when using the coarse stone and a higher angle when using the fine stone.

I don't deny you're getting good results but I don't like any of those guides that clip on the blade.  At the risk of sounding argumentative I find the angle is terribly important.  When I sharpen on the EP and the knife is in good basic shape (merely dull) I match the exact angle already on the blade.  This removes less metal, uses less stone and extends the life of the blade. 

If you really need to remove a lot of material, go with powered equipment. However, unless you're using your knives to pry open shipping crates or something, you don't need to remove that much stock when sharpening.

As for the wide range of grits, that's absolutely meaningless. You need a very coarse stone and a very fine stone. All the stuff in the middle will just waste your time (and money).

I wonder if you ever have to fix knives?  It sometimes takes a lot of metal removal to get chips out of a blade, not to mention broken tips.  Sure, a belt grinder is good for this if you're careful...and have somewhere to set it up...and don't live in an apartment with thin walls.   I guess it also depends on what you're sharpening.
 
As for grits, well...Murray Carter can get a knife sharp using a brick and a piece of cardboard!  But we ain't all MC.  For knives in decent shape (eg my own) I rarely go under 1k.  But I'm not a fan of going from coarse to fine in one jump.  There are a lot of reasons for this, and it relates to the level of polish I find appropriate for a Japanese kitchen knife, but I find intermediate steps give me a better edge.  And I finish to a much, much finer grit level than than you generally get with those kits.  Finishing with 0.3 micron abrasive on tape isn't overkill IMO.

There's nothing complicated about the EP, it's pretty simple.  Yeah, it costs a little more than the Razor Edge but the difference is worth it if you need or want the extra flexibility.

I guess you've been sharpening ten years more than I have, Turkey, and I don't doubt you get great results.  I'm nowhere's near the level where there's no room for improvement, which spurs me to keep getting better.  I can sharpen well on a belt, I'm decent at convexing, etc.  But I basically specialize in kitchen cutlery shapening on waterstones- it's what I'm best at.  We probably all gravitate towards the techniques we're most comfortable with.

[srb]

I have found with both wood finishing and auto body finishing, going from coarse/medium directly to fine can give "OK" or "satisfactory" results and sure is a lot quicker, but when I take the extra time and work my way up the abrasive ladder with progressively finer grits ending in ultra-fine, the finish produced is elevated to "superb" or "fantastic"!
 
I'm sure knife blades are no different in that respect.
 
Steve

[Rob Babcock]

I do think a progression gives better results when ultimate sharpness is the goal.  Obviously a serviceable edge doesn't require that much work.  For example, I can sharpen a Wusthof chef's knife on a coarse or extra-coarse DMT Diasharp plate and it will shave coming right off the Coarse.  But refining the scratch pattern will allow it to cut a lot better.

At it's core sharpening is a pretty simple deal- remove metal until the planes formed by the two bevels meet.  Generally this creates a burr, which you remove.  That's sharpening in a nutshell.  Anything beyond that is refining the edge.  This is really the same whether you're creating a V-grind or a convex edge.  The more the scratch pattern is refined, the keener the edge.  30,000 grit media will create a really nice polish which will push cut very well, as well as glide thru food.

Ultimately how one creates the edge is a matter of personal preference.  I prefer waterstones, and that's what I know best.  I also have a belt grinder, and that works well, too.  I know many pro sharpeners that use nothing but a belt grinder and they can get a knife very sharp.  Others might prefer a Razor Edge, or a Tormek, or paper wheels.  There's no wrong way IMO so long as it works and you're not overheating the edge.

[rahimlee54]

I'll just add a quick note, I think the chosera stones are suppose to be better for knife sharpening than the shaptons.  Based on what I was told the shaptons work better for tools, but if they are going on the apex then it should be good either way.  Not to say the shaptons are bad, the choseras are just suppose to be better.  I have no experience with the shaptons, I am only going off of word of mouth here.

[S Clark]

I use an 8" DMT double diamond stone with 300 and 1000 grit, then finish by stropping on a 14"x4" piece of  rough leather mounted on a board.  If I'm using SS then I use a steel between sharpening, if using high carbon Japanese I just restrop.  I have some antique stones for straight razors that sometimes I use for kicks, but they are a bit of a pain.